Dyno tune a stock ECU ..... ????

[WARputer]

A guy I work with says that the Gen I ECU's can be adjusted enough to compensate for any aftermarket exhaust. He says that of course with the Power Commander you'll get a better map that can be adjusted more /as often as you want but the stock ECU can be adjusted enough to run any set up you have. :umm: Anyone heard this before ?

[Nakedbusa]

We do it all the time. Most first gens are too rich in the mid and top of the map. We can pull fuel out and make them run a bit crisper or if you install a full system you can add a bit to the mid. Slip ons almost never require adjustment from stock.

[WARputer]

We do it all the time. Most first gens are too rich in the mid and top of the map. We can pull fuel out and make them run a bit crisper or if you install a full system you can add a bit to the mid. Slip ons almost never require adjustment from stock.

Good to know that my buddy wasn't telling me a bunch of crap. I wonder if they can adjust it enough to run a fully open exhaust. :umm:

[Cali Badazz !!!]

vince do you use like a yosh box like back in the day? or does suzuki make their own box?

[Tybalt]

Is this the same term they coin "reflashing the ecu?"

[cb2004mj]

id like to know some more as well as maybe a DUY tech maybe cause im running a full open system now and i know im rich through most the power band. can we get some more on this?!!!

[WARputer]

id like to know some more as well as maybe a DUY tech maybe cause im running a full open system now and i know im rich through most the power band. can we get some more on this?!!!


:confused: ..... BUMP !

[Quasar]

We do it all the time. Most first gens are too rich in the mid and top of the map. We can pull fuel out and make them run a bit crisper or if you install a full system you can add a bit to the mid. Slip ons almost never require adjustment from stock.

You say you do it all the time then failed to provide any worthwhile method for doing so.

If you use a Yosh Box, it will NOT provide a quality state of tune, as they can only raise or lower the fueling of an entire range (globally adjusting fueling in a given range).

GenI's had many areas that required additional fueling as well as a reduction of fueling within the same RPM range (and a Yosh Box only provided 3 global ranges of tuning), so a Yosh Box was totally inadequate for reflashing the ECM in hopes of establishing a stellar state of tune. Additionally, GenI's were NOT overly rich in the 100% throttle positions when using a quality aftermarket performance system and typically required aditional fueling to bring down their somewhat lean A/F ratios.

So, kindly provide the method that YOU implied that you used "all the time" for reflashing the ECM's fuel tables.

[Cali Badazz !!!]

i brought up the yoshbox cuz many dealers used them if you got a full system back in 01-02... i never said anything about reflashing the ecu.. i was more asking then telling cuz he didnt mention how as you pointed out quasar.. naked busa's dealership is where i service my k8 till my house is finished and they do great work and one tech has been there close to 20 years!! since it opened..

[WARputer]

The guy I talked to didn't mention a yosh box ......he was talking about just mapping the stock ECU. He said it wouldn't be as good as the PC because the ECU adjustments are only a low, medium and high settings but it will suffice .

[cb2004mj]

so is this a dealer only mod or is there a duy write up we can get our hands on?!!!!

[Nakedbusa]

Yosh box.

Quasar, If you want to spend more $$ on the PC or Bazzaz box your more than welcome to. I've done the Yosh box to many bikes and they have taken them to different local Dynos with sniffers and amazingly enough none have come back complaining about it. Most of the dyno tuners here will use the yosh tuner before adding the boxes to see if it really needs box in the first place.

[Nakedbusa]

Quasar, What do you think of the original PC they had for the 99-00 busas? If people want custom maps I am sure they will get them from you. If they want to try something else before dropping 250.00 on a PC, they can try the yosh box. Maybe not everyone is as critical as yourself.

[cb2004mj]

how much does the yosh box cost just curious, ive seen them but idk price

[Nakedbusa]

Retail on a yosh box is $400.00 but I picked up mine for 250.00 brand new from a guy on another message board. If you look around they can be had. It works on a lot of other suzuki bikes too.

[Quasar]

Quasar, What do you think of the original PC they had for the 99-00 busas? If people want custom maps I am sure they will get them from you. If they want to try something else before dropping 250.00 on a PC, they can try the yosh box. Maybe not everyone is as critical as yourself.

It's not a question of being critical. It's a question of what can and cannot be achieved. The Yosh Box is an inferior tuning device that can in no way even come close to the state of tune that can be achieved via a Power Commander.

Understand, it’s not my intention to get you or anyone fired up (not implying that you are either), but I’ve tuned over 500 Hayabusa engines and a Yosh Box can’t even compare to the state of tune that can be achieved with ANY Power Commander ever made. I still prefer to use the PCII on my 99 Hayabusa as its Ignition Timing modifications at 4,000 through 5,000 RPM make the engine so smooth and responsive that the engine feels lame without them.

Shortcomings of the Yosh Box:

1. Yosh Box fuel tuning doesn’t allow for intelligent fuel programming meaning, even if you increase or decrease fueling in a range of 3,000 RPM to yield whatever improved over all engine performance, there’s no way to isolate and retune just the highway cruise throttle ranges for far better fuel economy.

2. Assume you’ve altered the ECM’s (using the Yosh Box) for the best over all performance that it can provide; there’s NO means by which to increase just the 100% throttle positions for use with NOS.

3. When retuning for turbo usage, turboes typically require far less fuel in the lower throttle positions until 6,000 RPM or greater has been achieved HOWEVER, once the 20% throttle positions or higher have been achieved, the fueling typically must be far richer. The Yosh Box is quite simply incapable of providing this kind of tuning. It must either increase ALL or decrease ALL fuel cells in a given RPM range. This makes for some rather poor engine performance as these differences in fuel requirements from low throttle positions to higher throttle positions within the same RPM range can be quite large.

4. A new Yosh Box costs MORE than a new Power Commander (Yosh Box typically advertised around $475.00 or so), so it makes no sense to waste money on a tuning device that CANNOT provide 400+ individually tuned fuel cell intersections of throttle and RPM like a Power Commander can for even less money.

5. The Yosh Box CANNOT provide any modifications to ignition timing. The PCII and PCIIIr could readily provide these modifications and the PCIII USB makes ignition timing modifications possible with the purchase and addition of the stand-alone Ignition Module from Dynojet. There are areas of the Hayabusa’s engine that most definitely benefit from ignition timing advances.

6. Lastly, there are many other features offered by a PCIII USB that are simply not possible when using a Yosh Box to globally reflash 3 RPM zones of the ECM’s fuel tables. The Yosh Box is the equivalent to the limited 3 external buttons of every Power Commander. They also only allow increases or decreases in ALL fuel cells within a selected range just like the Yosh Box. The fuel injection cannot be retuned appropriately or effectively using such a technique.

[cb2004mj]

so my true question would be why buy a yosh box for $250 when it doesnt work as good as a PC when i can pick up a PC brand new for $260?!!

[Nakedbusa]

The average private party shouldnt have to byuy the Yosh box. You should go to the dealer and have someone adjust your computer for 20 bucks.

Hell, I work at a dealer and will be more than happy to sell you a PC and airfilter to go along with your new exhaust. Just more money in my pocket. Im just saying for the average joe, you can get a pipe installed and Yoshed and most will be happy. Then you can take the rest of the money and put different gearing, Woodcraft cover, new tires etc. and be pretty happy. A lot of people chase numbers and dyno graphs to look better at the local weekend hangout. Personally I want to be rolling, ya know, burning up 5 dollar a gallon gas.

[Quasar]

The average private party shouldnt have to byuy the Yosh box. You should go to the dealer and have someone adjust your computer for 20 bucks.

Hell, I work at a dealer and will be more than happy to sell you a PC and airfilter to go along with your new exhaust. Just more money in my pocket. Im just saying for the average joe, you can get a pipe installed and Yoshed and most will be happy. Then you can take the rest of the money and put different gearing, Woodcraft cover, new tires etc. and be pretty happy. A lot of people chase numbers and dyno graphs to look better at the local weekend hangout. Personally I want to be rolling, ya know, burning up 5 dollar a gallon gas.


Repectfully Nakedbusa, but you keep missing the many points concerning the Yosh Box's limited tuning capabilities. It matters not how much you spend to have someone alter the ECM with a Yosh Box, as they will NOT be able to achieve a fully optimized state of tune no matter what they alter the settings to. This is not conjecture, this is fact!

How does the Yosh Box provide a quality state of tune for 0 through 80% throttle positions and yet the much increased fueling requirements at 100% throttle for NOS use? It simply CAN'T! Likewise, it can't appropriately tune for turbo or even naturally aspirated usage. The Yosh Box was simply a gimmick to make quick money that could not provide independent fuel cell adjustment. The fact that it cannot provide independent fuel cell adjustment demonstrates its limited abilities.

The 4,000 and 4,500 RPM cruise ranges are particularly overly rich, but this isn't the case for the mid range. How can the Yosh Box tune for this condition? Quite simply, it cannot.

As the Yosh Box increases some fuel cells within a range that requires greater fueling, other fuel cells that require less fueling will only be made worse. The tuning of some cells is then made a wash by the detuning of other cells. Only those who don't understand how limited the Yosh Box actually is will continue on about how "supposedly useful" it is.

Most people WANT the ability to alter at will with EVERY modification they make, so they would need to purchase a device of some sort for altering their fuel injection. The Yosh Box is far too expensive and yields very little in the way of actual tuning.

[LandRocket]

The average private party shouldnt have to buy the Yosh box. You should go to the dealer and have someone adjust your computer for 20 bucks.



Repectfully Nakedbusa, but you keep missing the many points concerning the Yosh Box's limited tuning capabilities. It matters not how much you spend to have someone alter the ECM with a Yosh Box, as they will NOT be able to achieve a fully optimized state of tune no matter what they alter the settings to. This is not conjecture, this is fact!

How does the Yosh Box provide a quality state of tune for 0 through 80% throttle positions and yet the much increased fueling requirements at 100% throttle for NOS use? It simply CAN'T! Likewise, it can't appropriately tune for turbo or even naturally aspirated usage. The Yosh Box was simply a gimmick to make quick money that could not provide independent fuel cell adjustment. The fact that it cannot provide independent fuel cell adjustment demonstrates its limited abilities.

The 4,000 and 4,500 RPM cruise ranges are particularly overly rich, but this isn't the case for the mid range. How can the Yosh Box tune for this condition? Quite simply, it cannot.

As the Yosh Box increases some fuel cells within a range that requires greater fueling, other fuel cells that require less fueling will only be made worse. The tuning of some cells is then made a wash by the detuning of other cells. Only those who don't understand how limited the Yosh Box actually is will continue on about how "supposedly useful" it is.

Most people WANT the ability to alter at will with EVERY modification they make, so they would need to purchase a device of some sort for altering their fuel injection. The Yosh Box is far too expensive and yields very little in the way of actual tuning.

I think you missed his first sentence Quasar.......see above.

[Quasar]

I think you missed his first sentence Quasar.......see above.

I missed nothing, Landrocket. It's you who apparently missed what I stated in my last paragraph, so try paying closer attention.

[buffalojoe]

Hoooooooooly... money money money.. who cares about the money
part... we are all paying top dollar plus at the pumps modifying the bikes
at will and paying for it..

If I wanted to spruce up the fuel system by means of a PC or Yosh Box
I would rather fork out the extra coin and have it done right, rather
than blow 20$ (not sure what dealer does work at this rate) and get
a quick band-aid fix in the fueling...

That way if I decide to get that TURBO I want to have I don't have to
go out and buy the BOX that can do it in the first place..

PS.... Drinking beer and sorta reading between the lines bored since
my ride is broken(awaiting parts)

No disrespect just my Opinion.

PSS ... Quasar I have always read your posts and found them
very informative... even if I don't always get it...:rofl:

[tinmann8]

All this talk of Yosh boxes and Power commanders what about having your ECM tuned using factory Pro? Or has everyone forgotten about that alternative. How does having you ECM tuned using the factory Pro teka Sfi compare to the Power commander ?

[Tybalt]

All this talk of Yosh boxes and Power commanders what about having your ECM tuned using factory Pro? Or has everyone forgotten about that alternative. How does having you ECM tuned using the factory Pro teka Sfi compare to the Power commander ?

I actually like the INNOVATIVE Motorsports LM-1 A dyno in the palm of your hand

[Quasar]

All this talk of Yosh boxes and Power commanders what about having your ECM tuned using factory Pro? Or has everyone forgotten about that alternative. How does having you ECM tuned using the factory Pro teka Sfi compare to the Power commander ?

Howdy Tinmann8.

The Teka is an over priced device ($595.00) that isn't even as useful as a PCIII USB nor does it offer the features of a PCIII USB, which costs less than half as much! The advertisements on the Teka website make MANY outright bogus statements about Power Commanders. For this reason, I suggest that buyers beware.

The PCIII USB can currently be purchased at “hardracing.com” for $265.00 and at “parts411.com” for $283.00. The Teka simply cannot compete with a PCIII USB.

The Teka website also makes some other ridiculous claims. They state you should tune the idle range first as small throttle openings affect bigger openings. That’s just plain asinine and totally incorrect. Larger throttle openings have their own fuel cell locations and they have NOTHING to do with the idle or lower throttle ranges. They are Idiots!

I’m not going to waste my time explaining all the bullcrap that the Teka website tries to spoonfeed potential buyers, but I will say this, I’d NEVER consider their over priced piece of shit.

They also make like there's a lot of time wasted while waiting for maps to upload into a Power Commander and state their Teka only takes 20 seconds! Ha, ha, ha... The PCIII USB takes less than 1 second to upload a map! It's the Teka that will have you waiting! Hell, even my PCII only takes about 8 to 10 seconds at most to upload a map via its Com port! Teka's are over priced junk!

[tinmann8]

Thanks for clearing that up for me "Q" . A wealth of knowledge as alway. Hope everything has been alright.

[Cali Badazz !!!]

not to add fuel to a fire but i too know many riders who were happy after having a local shop use the yosh box on their bikes. in general most california bikes run pretty lean at idle etc to pass smog.. so the "course" adjustments were enough to satisfy the average rider. i agree there is no subsitute for a custom map optimizing where you spend the most time riding which is not WOT.. they did my 99 gsxr and it was much better then stock. but it could not help the snappy throttle response when i would crack it open it would jerk etc.. i went with i race tuner and the pc.. and it was so much better. but my shop charged me nothing and back then nobody bought a yosh box. the dealers all seemed to have them. just like the course adjusters on the pc do in fact work the yosh box also work just nowhere near as good as a pc. but some issues can be solved with just the course adjustments dont you agree?

[Cali Badazz !!!]

:confused:

[busakid]

I think Quaser you need to stop dancing around and tell us what you really think of the Yosh and Teka LOL

I do agree totally with you - but I am looking at teh Bazzaz but a bit wary as it sounds like a full on Pro piece of kit that will require a lot more input than I have knowledge and time - PCIII is looking like the best all round option ...plus I have had 3 in prev bikes and very happy with the results

BK

[Cali Badazz !!!]

nobody ever said anything negative about the pcIII. but i think that tuners are gonna have to wake up and smell the BAZZAZZ cooking and start learning how to use them. it will be the hot setup for street or track whether you use all it's features or not. it is the future and it's here now.

[Got-Busa?]

Quasar knows his stuff! I would recommend the PCIII USB or BAZZ setup if you want a plug and play. However, don't forget that the Gen-I ECU has been hacked and you can alter the factory ECU tables just like a factory flash if you have the time and know how to build the components needed... http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=117561.0

[Cali Badazz !!!]

+1

[Quasar]

nobody ever said anything negative about the pcIII. but i think that tuners are gonna have to wake up and smell the BAZZAZZ cooking and start learning how to use them. it will be the hot setup for street or track whether you use all it's features or not. it is the future and it's here now.

Keep in mind that the typical rider (meaning the greater majority of riders) doesn't need anything more than a PCIII USB. I conducted a poll on SH.ORG a couple years ago and it indicated that only 15% to no more than 20% actually race their Hayabusas, so the greater majority are just street-riders out having fun.

PCIII USB's have been around for many years now and with that background of wide usage comes a huge knowledge base that makes it very user-friendly in MANY respects.

The ONLY aftermarket fuel injection device that might catch on and supercede the PCIII USB is if it's sold significantly cheaper and provides as much or more "usable" modifiable parameters. Simply adding more "Whistles and Bells" that aren't used by the majority of riders does very little in the way of selling the device as cost-worthy. :thumbs up:

[Cali Badazz !!!]

hard to imagine "new" technology to be cheaper than "outdated" equiptment. the bazzaz lets you control all 8 injectors and has a host of other features that can turn a sunday drive into a serious test and tune session. there is no debate for me about the pcII and pcIII they kick ass!! but the bazzaz is proven itself worthy these last few years and probably isn't needed for most riders just like a PC. when i do decide i want a "perfect" state of tune i will go with the bazzaz for the extra features (i am a gadget whore).. but would be just as happy with the PCIII. i will wait till i meet a tuner that loves the bazzaz the way quasar loves the PC cuz thats what you need to get the most out of it. someone that knows what the hell they are doing.